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History Thread
Started by Fire Doinks




41 posts in this topic
Snake Plissken
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10-21-2015, 07:27 AM -
#21
(10-20-2015, 07:55 PM)dok Wrote: :grantland:

Been after a good book on the Tetrarchy for a while. Slim pickings from what I've seen - old Uni-style textbooks going for 50/60 quid which is not much good for me as I'm (1) a scaff and (2) quite stupid.

Suppose the Decline and Fall will get round to it eventually (Fat Cunt)

I recall watching a couple of lectures from Yale University about that time period on You Tube which might be of some interest:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...079A91C3F2

I`ve got The Fall of the Roman Empire (2006, Peter Heather) sat on my desk but I`ve got dozens of other texts to get through first, I`m sure it mentions it but probably doesn`t go into great detail.
Shuto Makino
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10-21-2015, 08:49 AM -
#22
Like I said this stuff isn't exactly clear in my mind, but a couple of things stuck out to me here:

(10-20-2015, 10:02 PM)shaun.lawson Wrote: 2. England, of course, was Protestant. But Scotland (much of it, anyway), Ireland, Spain and France were all Catholic

Not sure where you're getting the bit about Scotland, or even large parts of it, being Catholic. IIRC there were large amounts of dissenting Protestants, but Catholicism was no more prÃvalent than in England. If you have a source for this I'm happy to be proven wrong, but that's my recollection.

Quote:3. The Whigs split hopelessly over the French Revolution and its aftermath. Many had been joyful initially, only to be horrified at the bloodshed and slaughter which resulted. The law of unforeseen consequences was what led Edmund Burke to cross the floor, join the Tories and define the Whigs, led by Charles James Fox, as dangerous subversives. This isolated Fox and made Pitt's Tories the only show in town; the Whigs found themselves out of power for 46 out of 47 years between 1783 and 1830.

It's worth pointing out here that pretty much everyone in British politics at this stage would have self-defined as a Whig. The Pittites rejected the label of 'Tory'; the distinction has largely only been accepted and applied retrospectively. Probably a small point in the grand scheme of things - 'Whigs vs Tories' is snappier than 'Pittites vs Foxites', but it's worth bearing in mind.

Quote:5. One other thing. Other than the Talents Ministry's abolition of the slave trade in 1807, literally nothing happened in domestic British politics for almost half a century.

I'm going to assume that you're not including Ireland in domestic British politics here. Right?
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
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Chris Benoit
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10-21-2015, 11:37 AM -
#23
(10-21-2015, 06:48 AM)Donald Dank Wrote: Think maybe £40-50 in total? A mate of mine just torrented them all then made a slightly lower guilt donation.

He is really good, former journalist/broadcaster but he does tell the stories in a really engaging way. You listened to prophets of doom?


Is that the Martin Luther one in Germany? Really liked that one, I think he makes it easier to engage with it by sticking to the human element of the story rather than flooding it with facts and figures. Can see myself getting the whole back catalogue 
Johnny
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10-21-2015, 07:11 PM -
#24
Ottoman Empire lads. Anyone reccomend any reading/documentaries on this? There was one on the BBC not long ago that I watched that got me interested
shaun.lawson
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10-22-2015, 06:40 AM -
#25
(10-21-2015, 08:49 AM)Makween Wrote: Like I said this stuff isn't exactly clear in my mind, but a couple of things stuck out to me here:


Not sure where you're getting the bit about Scotland, or even large parts of it, being Catholic.  IIRC there were large amounts of dissenting Protestants, but Catholicism was no more prÃvalent than in England.  If you have a source for this I'm happy to be proven wrong, but that's my recollection.


It's worth pointing out here that pretty much everyone in British politics at this stage would have self-defined as a Whig.  The Pittites rejected the label of 'Tory'; the distinction has largely only been accepted and applied retrospectively.  Probably a small point in the grand scheme of things - 'Whigs vs Tories' is snappier than 'Pittites vs Foxites', but it's worth bearing in mind.


I'm going to assume that you're not including Ireland in domestic British politics here.  Right?

Many important corrections and clarifications here: thanks!

On Scotland, the language I used was hopeless. What I should've said was: in England, Scotland was thought of as Catholic. This is because of the bizarre way in which the Jacobite rebellions, and Charles I and James II before that, led to a pretty all-encompassing mythology about 'Scotland' (inverted commas here, because I'm well aware that Culloden, for example, was nothing like England v Scotland) which just dominated matters at Westminster for generations on end.

Then, after the 1801 stitch-up, Ireland replaced Scotland as the great, looming 'threat' which had to be 'pacified'. And when I talk about nothing happening in domestic politics, what I mean principally is:

1. No Parliamentary reform until 1832 despite Britain changing dramatically: industrialising rapidly and a new rentier middle class emerging

2. No Catholic emancipation until 1829 despite the aforementioned stitch-up

3. The maintenance of the Corn Laws until 1846 despite this being so at odds with how the country was changing

I excluded Ireland from the above list because having wasted years of my life poring over manuscripts in the British Library during my PhD, it wasn't viewed as 'domestic' exactly. The ignorance on display from government ministers about this seemingly far-away place teeming with rascals and revolutionaries was breathtaking. The Lord Lieutenant, who didn't have to worry about dealing with the real world from his quarters at Dublin Castle, would send letters to government colleagues congratulating himself on keeping everything in order. It was like reading about some kind of parallel universe.

Your point on the Pittites is good and important too. Unable to alter George III's set views on Catholic emancipation, Pitt resigned in 1801 - but after his death five years later, both 'pro-Catholics' and 'anti-Catholics' used the events around his resignation to each claim to be acting according to what he would have wanted. A farcical situation ensued after 1812: ministry after ministry would declare that the Catholic question was 'open', and always include some 'pro-Catholic' and some 'anti-Catholic' ministers. This meant, inevitably, that nothing would change: even under George Canning, vociferous 'pro-Catholic' and the subject of my PhD, in 1827.

Then, just as only Nixon could go to China, only Wellington and Peel, both long known for their opposition to Catholic emancipation, could force the king's hand in 1829... and precipitate the complete implosion of the Tories. And the wonderful thing about Peel was he broke his party not once, but twice.

Incidentally, do I think we're in the early stages of a long process similar to that of 1815-32 which will finally force electoral reform and ultimately break the Tories for good? I do actually (a status quo in which the government is so wildly unrepresentative of public opinion cannot possibly hold forever)... but it's a very, very long haul.
This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 06:46 AM by shaun.lawson.
Shuto Makino
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10-22-2015, 11:05 AM -
#26
(10-22-2015, 06:40 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: Many important corrections and clarifications here: thanks!

On Scotland, the language I used was hopeless. What I should've said was: in England, Scotland was thought of as Catholic. This is because of the bizarre way in which the Jacobite rebellions, and Charles I and James II before that, led to a pretty all-encompassing mythology about 'Scotland' (inverted commas here, because I'm well aware that Culloden, for example, was nothing like England v Scotland) which just dominated matters at Westminster for generations on end.

Then, after the 1801 stitch-up, Ireland replaced Scotland as the great, looming 'threat' which had to be 'pacified'. And when I talk about nothing happening in domestic politics, what I mean principally is:

1. No Parliamentary reform until 1832 despite Britain changing dramatically: industrialising rapidly and a new rentier middle class emerging

2. No Catholic emancipation until 1829 despite the aforementioned stitch-up

3. The maintenance of the Corn Laws until 1846 despite this being so at odds with how the country was changing

I excluded Ireland from the above list because having wasted years of my life poring over manuscripts in the British Library during my PhD, it wasn't viewed as 'domestic' exactly. The ignorance on display from government ministers about this seemingly far-away place teeming with rascals and revolutionaries was breathtaking. The Lord Lieutenant, who didn't have to worry about dealing with the real world from his quarters at Dublin Castle, would send letters to government colleagues congratulating himself on keeping everything in order. It was like reading about some kind of parallel universe.

Your point on the Pittites is good and important too. Unable to alter George III's set views on Catholic emancipation, Pitt resigned in 1801 - but after his death five years later, both 'pro-Catholics' and 'anti-Catholics' used the events around his resignation to each claim to be acting according to what he would have wanted. A farcical situation ensued after 1812: ministry after ministry would declare that the Catholic question was 'open', and always include some 'pro-Catholic' and some 'anti-Catholic' ministers. This meant, inevitably, that nothing would change: even under George Canning, vociferous 'pro-Catholic' and the subject of my PhD, in 1827.

Then, just as only Nixon could go to China, only Wellington and Peel, both long known for their opposition to Catholic emancipation, could force the king's hand in 1829... and precipitate the complete implosion of the Tories. And the wonderful thing about Peel was he broke his party not once, but twice.

Incidentally, do I think we're in the early stages of a long process similar to that of 1815-32 which will finally force electoral reform and ultimately break the Tories for good? I do actually (a status quo in which the government is so wildly unrepresentative of public opinion cannot possibly hold forever)... but it's a very, very long haul.

Thanks for the reply; I thought that might have been your reason for excluding Ireland. Without having looked into the period as deeply as you, I was aware that Ireland was effectively treated in the same way as other colonies. Seeing it as a domestic issue would once again be retrospectively applying modern-day perceptions to the past. The comment on English perceptions of Scotland also makes a lot of sense.

This thread has made me want to start looking at this period again: it might not be one of the most obviously interesting ones of British history (excluding the wars against France), but I found certain aspects of it (particularly British radicalism of the late 18th/early 19th century and why it didn't catch on) fascinating.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Cheeky Gnando’s
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10-22-2015, 09:52 PM -
#27
Anyone who finds that period particularly interesting is a nailed on Blackadder the Third fan and therefore a great guy IMO.
This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 09:53 PM by Cheeky Gnando’s.
Walter Sobchak
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10-22-2015, 11:08 PM -
#28
(10-22-2015, 09:52 PM)Francis Begbie Wrote: Anyone who finds that period particularly interesting is a nailed on Blackadder the Third fan and therefore a great guy IMO.

Great post.

As a reward, take a short holiday.
Cheeky Gnando’s
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10-22-2015, 11:16 PM -
#29
(10-22-2015, 11:08 PM)Walter Sobchak Wrote: Great post.

As a reward, take a short holiday.


Thanks, I did enjoy it. A triumph for stupidity over common sense.
Winston Churchill
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10-24-2015, 11:25 AM -
#30
fan owned but not fan run Warnock
Fire Doinks
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02-14-2017, 01:51 PM -
#31
Came across this guy's Youtube a week or so ago -





He's done loads of videos, really good summaries covering a wide range of conflicts and events.
PHOODLE-OUt
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02-14-2017, 02:00 PM -
#32
Love stuff like that.
Fire Doinks
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02-14-2017, 02:07 PM -
#33
Sound

Check out his channel, there's tonnes of them. Quite enjoyed the Falklands one.
PHOODLE-OUt
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02-14-2017, 02:10 PM -
#34
Working through them just now Laugh
Roger H. Sterling
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02-14-2017, 02:32 PM -
#35
Got a minute in. Content sounds dece but that guys voice/accent/audio production is horrendous.
shaun.lawson
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02-14-2017, 03:35 PM -
#36


Fire Doinks
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12-10-2017, 02:20 AM -
#37




Good talk

There are some people that I could listen to on anything, Victor Davis Hanson is one of them.
Fire Doinks
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12-10-2017, 02:54 AM -
#38
The statistic on 4 engine bomber production Wow

Quite amazing that us and the US achieved this where Germany failed despite all of their other technological advancements during the 30s and 40s. The bombing range that we developed had a massive impact on the war.

My family has quite a deep history with the RAF, I don't have much detail on the missions they ran or the bombing campaigns they supported but I've never felt any guilt about the civilian lives they likely took. I don't know if that's because I buy into the patriotism of it all or because I accept the reality that the axis powers were even more guilty of this than us, and in a war you have to think strategically and not morally.

It's a good talk though and I'd recommend doing a YT search of Victor Davis Hanson for some of his talks. Very insightful man with as much to say about contemporary wars as he does about historical ones.
Peas N Gravy
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12-11-2017, 08:06 PM -
#39
You should read Hellstorm: the death of Nazi Germany. Comes from a German perspective.
Fire Doinks
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12-11-2017, 08:13 PM -
#40
Fart Smelly

Cheers for the suggestion, having googled it I see there's a doc on it so I'll probably give that a watch. Reads like it's about Soviet war crimes as they swept across eastern europe?



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