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Climate Crisis
Started by Picards Forehead




420 posts in this topic
Morph
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08-13-2021, 10:12 AM -
#61
I think listening to the general populace is the last thing you want to do but agree that information from people who actually understand the complexities of the crisis has to be communicated far better.

It’s not in the best interests of the folk in power to have a well educated population on these matters though because they’ll start to demand change Monty Oh Well
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pondlife
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08-13-2021, 10:27 AM -
#62
The only really significant(substantial) protests I've seen in my lifetime, from right across the population spectrum, were against the first Gulf War.  Blair didn't listen but I suspect that should your ordinary citizen go down that route again, the govt of the day won't ignore it this time.  Might well end up in platitudes, but I get the feeling by then everybody will be pretty much on board.

Of course time isn't on our side but really if they want buy-in, more needs to be done to soften the blow!  You can't simply turn off the lights, and unfortunately it's still being framed that way. Monty Oh Well
This post was last modified: 08-13-2021, 10:28 AM by pondlife.
Picards Forehead
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08-13-2021, 10:38 AM -
#63
(08-13-2021, 10:27 AM)pondlife Wrote: The only really significant(substantial) protests I've seen in my lifetime, from right across the population spectrum, were against the first Gulf War.  Blair didn't listen but I suspect that should your ordinary citizen go down that route again, the govt of the day won't ignore it this time.  Might well end up in platitudes, but I get the feeling by then everybody will be pretty much on board.

Of course time isn't on our side but really if they want buy-in, more needs to be done to soften the blow!  You can't simply turn off the lights, and unfortunately it's still being framed that way. Monty Oh Well


Sounds good m8. When are we joining extinction rebellion? Quite Good
Walter Boycechak
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08-13-2021, 11:51 AM -
#64
(08-13-2021, 10:27 AM)pondlife Wrote:  You can't simply turn off the lights

We need a complete infrastructure overhaul. The countries willing to do that now will reap the rewards later, but there is a total lack of willingness to do this.

If only a major party leader had proposed a green new deal in his manifesto...oh wait. Monty Oh Well

There is also a big discussion to be had on nuclear power. Zero emission, obviously other issues to deal with, but an honest discussion on it is required.
pondlife
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08-13-2021, 01:06 PM -
#65
Agree entirely on nuclear power. It's something remote Arctic communities, that rely solely on diesel power, will probably have to come to terms with sooner rather than later. Small & Medium Reactor (SMRs) (including vSMRs) technology is advancing a a good rate, and many sites are currently being set up - China, Russia, Canada, States. Alas, these things take time.
Beni-Useful
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08-13-2021, 01:28 PM -
#66
Nuclear power still has the PR problem of being the bogeyman of the 50s and 60s. There’s been a couple high profile disasters but when you compare them to how many people have been killed by fossil fuels it pales in to insignificance.
Monty Oh You
Mak-aroni
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08-13-2021, 09:40 PM -
#67
The big plus point of the green new deal, imo, is that it reframes environmentalism in terms of how it can make all of our lives better rather than the sacrifices we'll all need to make (so engaging to an extent with Pondy's criticisms). Not that it matters as there won't be a green new deal anywhere anyway due to total lack of political will, but the messaging around it could've been a great opportunity.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
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Hung S.J.
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08-13-2021, 09:47 PM -
#68
The "Green New Deal" or the "The Green Revolution" is well under way. Global capital are moving their assets en mass to this new disaster form of capitalism. Agri-business and Big Tech are all over it. The IPCC report, the Big Reset etc...is all part of opening up these new markets for the elites and the techno-managerialists to make coin off all of this.

The IPCC are dodge as fuck, tbqh. In the pockets of many folk.
Mak-aroni
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08-13-2021, 09:51 PM -
#69
Yes, capital will/is certainly appropriating the discourse of the green new deal (although it'll be emptied of the substance of how it was originally theorised, which is what I was referencing in my post).
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Hung S.J.
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08-13-2021, 09:53 PM -
#70
Yeah, and since there is a corporate capture of the political class, you'll see the political will to push it hard.
Mak-aroni
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08-13-2021, 09:57 PM -
#71
Scott, the thing you are talking about is a different thing to the thing I was talking about and I need you to understand that different things are different.
This post was last modified: 08-13-2021, 09:57 PM by Mak-aroni.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Picards Forehead
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08-13-2021, 10:20 PM -
#72
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...-un-report

Quote:Global greenhouse gas emissions must peak in the next four years, coal and gas-fired power plants must close in the next decade and lifestyle and behavioural changes will be needed to avoid climate breakdown, according to the leaked draft of a report from the world’s leading authority on climate science.

Not holding out much hope for any of that Warnock
Terry
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08-13-2021, 10:24 PM -
#73
What you gonna do when an asteroid hits you, brother.
Hung S.J.
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08-14-2021, 09:12 AM -
#74
I'll make myself clear to ensure that I am directly addressing your point and it can't be suggested that i'm talking about a different thing.

(08-13-2021, 09:40 PM)Mak-aroni Wrote: there won't be a green new deal anywhere anyway due to total lack of political will, but the messaging around it could've been a great opportunity.

There will 100% be a green new deal and rather than there being a lack of political will, it will be spearheaded by political institutions and it will move away from fossil fuels. There will be a genuine focus on large scale green energy investment and infrastructure projects as a way to combat climate change with a demand on local populations to accept signficant adaptation to their local environments. Sustainable transport initiatives will enjoy increased funding, there will be large scale green retrofitting of households and green jobs will be created within the context of the green new deal scenario.

What won't be included (except on the margins) j are the needed conversations about how we can radically re-organise society beyond the green new deal.

What do I mean by radically re-organise society? The food system is key, but if we are to continue to focus on energy transition, here's a simple example. The Green New Deal, as expected will move away from fossil fuels and there will be large scale windfarms, hydro plants and solar panels built on available land. Why? So that we can capture energy and deliver energy to the national grid. A more envrionmentally sustainable alternative however - instead of a local area delivering energy to the national grid and that energy re-distributed across the country, a more environmentally sustainable alternative is to instead set up local energy initiatives whereby local populations have control over their own energy needs, are not beholden to the monopoly of energy companies and can capture energy from much smaller wind turbines (or other sources). This woulld remove the industrial element of wind farm creation, less ore is mined from the global south to produce these huge structures, less wildlife are killed by these large-scale windfarm/solar projects and crucially a greater amount of land is now available for more sustainable activities e.g. rewilding, sustainable farming etc... Re-organising energy capture and delivery in this way would also helkp local areas to become genuinely resilient in times of environmental crises as people would be insentiviised to ensure the energy needs are always met. The complete opposite of what happened in Texas over the winter, where the federal, state government and utility companies didn't set up the correct crisis preparedness infrastructure as their incentive was primarly profit maximisation over system resilience and were slow to act when crisis struck. The added bonus therefore is that as well as an authentically sustainable energy transition process, we also have a more just, democratic one.  

Here are some examples:

German town community Energy Initiative https://theconversation.com/this-small-g...ble-126294

Water commoning in Galicia https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.o...iza-spain/

Due to Catalans having to self-organise when Franco turned off the lights and taps as a way of suppression, commoning is in Catalan culture and there is quite a mature network of this type of model of ultility delivery across Barcelona. The housing cooperatives are really cool in Barca - and operate with rent controls that stop gentrification processes https://commonstransition.org/commons-co...barcelona/


The Green New Deal is here, it exists and it will certainly do it's job in marginaly reducing carbon emissions, however it is led by the same folk (and ideological underpinnings) as those who brought us the last deal which resulted in the destruction of earth thus far.


Bill Gates is now the the biggest owner of farmland in the US.
https://navdanyainternational.org/bill-g...tates-why/

Quote:Our era is dominated by the ultra-rich, the climate crisis and a burgeoning green capitalism. And Bill Gates’ new book How to Avoid a Climate Disaster positions himself as a thought leader in how to stop putting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and how to fund what he has called elsewhere a “global green revolution” to help poor farmers mitigate climate change. What expertise in climate science or agriculture Gates possesses beyond being filthy rich is anyone’s guess.

The Global Green Revolution is coming - sponsored by Bayer-Monsanto and Exxon Mobil.
This post was last modified: 08-14-2021, 09:25 AM by Hung S.J..
Mak-aroni
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08-14-2021, 04:44 PM -
#75
As it was originally theorised, the GND did include the kind of engagement you're suggesting - it was originally suggested in a U.S. context and included, e.g., engagement with indigeneous communities to provide resources to locally-run schemes, both to democratise the transition to a more sustainable future and to incorporate an element of redistributive justice. Clearly, elsewhere in the world, that would need to be adapted to local contexts and local projects like those you mention.

Where I do agree is that a 'Green New Deal' would need to be a flexible, ongoing process, and that it provides a positively connoted name for the forces of global capital to reappropriate in the service of pretending we can both continue to chase economic growth and maintain a world that is habitable for humans - two fundamentally oppositional projects.

I've made very clear now, though, that the latter project wasn't what I was referring to, and it's just an obvious bad faith argument, given what you know about my politics, to pretend I was talking about Bill fucking Gates when I said that there were some positives to the discourse around the Green New Deal. Can't quite decide if this is a case of you being desperate to prove yourself as TH's Top Environmentalist or just seeing the words 'Green New Deal' and desperately firing out a critique you'd wanted to post for ages, regardless of whether it was relevant - probably both. Different things are different.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Morph
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08-14-2021, 04:49 PM -
#76
(08-13-2021, 10:20 PM)Picards Forehead Wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...-un-report


Not holding out much hope for any of that Warnock

Someone I was speaking to was saying that even though coal power is awful and obv needs to be stopped, whatever it emits actually creates some sort of barrier in the air that prevents even more damage to the atmosphere.

Once coal power is slowed down and that barrier starts to fade apparently the assault on our atmosphere is going to be a lot more aggressive Warnock

What chance do you stand?
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Picards Forehead
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08-14-2021, 04:58 PM -
#77
(08-14-2021, 04:49 PM)Morph Wrote: Someone I was speaking to was saying that even though coal power is awful and obv needs to be stopped, whatever it emits actually creates some sort of barrier in the air that prevents even more damage to the atmosphere.

Once coal power is slowed down and that barrier starts to fade apparently the assault on our atmosphere is going to be a lot more aggressive Warnock

What chance do you stand?


I read somewhere that the IPCC report actually mentions we have about .8°c of cooling effects at the moment Dismay
Charlie Kelly
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08-14-2021, 05:46 PM -
#78
(08-14-2021, 04:49 PM)Morph Wrote: Someone I was speaking to was saying that even though coal power is awful and obv needs to be stopped, whatever it emits actually creates some sort of barrier in the air that prevents even more damage to the atmosphere.

Once coal power is slowed down and that barrier starts to fade apparently the assault on our atmosphere is going to be a lot more aggressive Warnock

What chance do you stand?

That’s similar to what they said about the after effects of the planes being grounded after 9/11, apparently the fumes from all the air travel in America was shielding us from heat levels from the sun and when the planes were all grounded the temperature went up by about 2 degrees or something :Laugh
pondlife
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08-14-2021, 10:29 PM -
#79
I'ver had a few but I genuinely can't comprehend what Morph has posted above. Laugh
Terry
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08-14-2021, 10:48 PM -
#80
Sounds like utter bollocks to me like.



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