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'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread
Started by Sterling Archer




25887 posts in this topic
Adonis Aceyjaj
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01-14-2020, 03:35 PM -
(01-14-2020, 03:33 PM)Little Bit Of The Begbie Wrote: Trying to become a Government isn’t about creating an elitist club ffs.

The Conservative Cabinet would like a word with you. Monty Oh Well
(08-02-2018, 09:04 AM)Mags Wrote: The answer is Yes.
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Walter Boycechak
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01-14-2020, 03:38 PM -
(01-14-2020, 03:33 PM)Little Bit Of The Begbie Wrote: Your Twitter Corbynistas are actually so fucking stupid man. Labelling Starmer a “Blairite” because he actually presents as competent and for being whipped on a vote on Welfare Reform. The worst kind of snooty, champagne socialist pricks - celebrating an election loss like it was a landslide victory and quite happy for folk to suffer Tory policies forever more so long as it doesn’t mean any compromise on their ideological purity. Children, the lot of them. Some of the stuff I’ve seen them come out with over the last few days is honestly wild. I saw a few folk saying that Starmer has a chance of winning an election and that proves he’s the wrong leader because any leader offering the change we need will be hounded/denigrated by the media and lose. That logic Warnock

Everyone knew Corbyn would lose and they argued blind he wouldn’t. Now they want someone else who will lose. Trying to become a Government isn’t about creating an elitist club ffs.

Saw a big rant about "labour are dead" because RLB 'would send millions to their death and press the nuclear button'. I mean FFS.
Little Bit Of The Boycey
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01-14-2020, 03:39 PM -
(01-14-2020, 03:35 PM)Acey Wrote: The Conservative Cabinet would like a word with you. Monty Oh Well

Yes, I did suspect that someone would pick up on that Laugh - I was specifically referring to voters, not representatives, so the policy is sound.

The Tories are elitist posh fucks, but they’ve managed to get a lot of working class folk to vote for them in the last decade.
Little Bit Of The Boycey
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01-14-2020, 03:43 PM -
(01-14-2020, 03:38 PM)Walter Sobchak Wrote: Saw a big rant about "labour are dead" because RLB 'would send millions to their death and press the nuclear button'. I mean FFS.


What Warnock

They’re not adults. To be that simplistic and that politically naive is honestly scary. No wonder some folk thought Corbynism was a cult.
Makween
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01-14-2020, 04:49 PM -
There are decent reasons to have reservations about certain aspects of Starmer's history (as will be the case with anyone in politics of his age), but to suggest Labour need a dyed in the wool anti-imperialist socialist leader or the party is dead is just mental. Even if Starmer is further to the right on some issues than some of the membership would like, if the left of the party is strong he'll have to make concessions. Think people have to accept that in order to achieve things, you need to work with people you don't necessarily agree with.

Not sure how specific this is to Corbynistas, though - the way the left is now behaving isn't much different from how the 'never Corbyn' right of the party was behaving before. Think it's maybe more of an issue of very online people getting locked into their own echo chambers, and not being able to differentiate between the kind of small issues Twitter uncovers (e.g. Starmer having voted the wrong way, Corbyn standing beside the wrong people), which would've gone unnoticed 10-20 years ago, and genuinely big ideological differences (Jess Phillips). It's something the left (in the broadest possible terms) has always been bad at, and which social media has exacerbated.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Walter Boycechak
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01-14-2020, 04:55 PM -
Thanks for reminding us about Jess Phillips. Wiggo
Grumblebum
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01-14-2020, 05:00 PM -
(01-14-2020, 04:49 PM)Makween Wrote: There are decent reasons to have reservations about certain aspects of Starmer's history (as will be the case with anyone in politics of his age), but to suggest Labour need a dyed in the wool anti-imperialist socialist leader or the party is dead is just mental. Even if Starmer is further to the right on some issues than some of the membership would like, if the left of the party is strong he'll have to make concessions. Think people have to accept that in order to achieve things, you need to work with people you don't necessarily agree with.

Not sure how specific this is to Corbynistas, though - the way the left is now behaving isn't much different from how the 'never Corbyn' right of the party was behaving before. Think it's maybe more of an issue of very online people getting locked into their own echo chambers, and not being able to differentiate between the kind of small issues Twitter uncovers (e.g. Starmer having voted the wrong way, Corbyn standing beside the wrong people), which would've gone unnoticed 10-20 years ago, and genuinely big ideological differences (Jess Phillips). It's something the left (in the broadest possible terms) has always been bad at, and which social media has exacerbated.

It’s also people like us not being able to differentiate between how people behave on twitter and in real life.

Same way independence supporters get painted as “cybernats”.
This post was last modified: 01-14-2020, 05:00 PM by Grumblebum.
Frank Uchewood
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01-14-2020, 05:31 PM -
If the Corbynite left get their woman in that'll be the end of the party and the cultists will deserve it. They can go about with their mad wee schemes whilst losing every election going and getting hammered off the Tories every five years. They will only have themselves to blame.
Grumblebum
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01-14-2020, 05:40 PM -
Who's their woman? I don't see them getting behind one candidate in particular?
Frank Uchewood
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01-14-2020, 05:43 PM -
The notorious RLB.
Makween
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01-14-2020, 05:46 PM -
(01-14-2020, 04:55 PM)Walter Sobchak Wrote: Thanks for reminding us about Jess Phillips.  Wiggo

Heh

Almost felt like she was the wrong example for ideological differences as I legitimately don't know her stance on almost any issue. Primarily her ideology seems to be Jess Phillips.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Grumblebum
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01-14-2020, 05:49 PM -
(01-14-2020, 05:43 PM)Frank Uchewood Wrote: The notorious RLB.

You are making her out to be some evil witch. She may not be the strongest candidate out of the five, but she is entitled to run.

I thought we were all agreed that Corbyn's message was decent, but it was the fact he was a trotskyist, terrorist-loving, anti-semetic, communist, power hungry, champagne socialist that was the problem?

I assume that the "notorious" Rebecca Long Bailey (read notorious as, hardly anyone in Britain kens her) is now the wicked witch of the west?
This post was last modified: 01-14-2020, 05:52 PM by Grumblebum.
Frank Uchewood
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01-14-2020, 06:00 PM -
(01-14-2020, 05:49 PM)Grumblebum Wrote: You are making her out to be some evil witch. She may not be the strongest candidate out of the five, but she is entitled to run.

I thought we were all agreed that Corbyn's message was decent, but it was the fact he was a trotskyist, terrorist-loving, anti-semetic, communist, power hungry, champagne socialist that was the problem?

I assume that the "notorious" Rebecca Long Bailey (read notorious as, hardly anyone in Britain kens her) is now the wicked witch of the west?

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The notorious RLB bit was just a play on notorious RBG/BIG - shocking patter, nothing more and nothing less.

She's not evil, she's not the wicked witch of the West and she is of course entitled to run. But let's get real for a second - the BBC/Kuenssberg will bury her in a day if given half a chance. She is momentum backed and the media have already said she is the natural successor to Corbyn.

The message and policies might be popular with some but I think the 'extreme left' message from the media got traction with many English voters which had an effect. Labour need someone who can appear less 'extreme' and can effectively be a balance when faced with the clown across the dispatch box.

Just my 2 cents, of course. I don't think a momentum/Corbyn cult backed leader will go well Jezza
Grumblebum
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01-14-2020, 06:06 PM -
I don't disagree as much with your follow up post. I do think she should be given the decency of not being called part of a cult. She seems like a good MP, from a working class area and I wouldn't be surprised if she shared a lot of similar views to me.

As you correctly mentioned, it's not within my power to stop everyone saying she's part of some extreme left cult out to destroy britain (although that sounds pretty good), but that will happen. The best I can do is call it out. Very sick of decent people with decent views on the future of this country being dragged through the mud.

I've posted on here for around 2 years now that I wish a generally similar message to Corbyn's was delivered but by Starmer and I hope that comes through. Seems like a natural balance between different factions within Labour. I do worry about his charisma, but hopefully that can be balanced off by a perceived credibility within the mainstream press from his time as EU shadow minister or whatever it was.
Ross Kemp On Spice
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01-14-2020, 06:08 PM -
She gave 10/10 to Corbyn for his campaign. That should have been the end of her. Another mup.
Makween
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01-14-2020, 06:11 PM -
(01-14-2020, 06:08 PM)Ross Kemp On Spice Wrote: She gave 10/10 to Corbyn for his campaign. That should have been the end of her. Another mup.

Agree with this in the sense that any candidate willing to engage with such a stupid fucking question probably shouldn't be leader.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Little Bit Of The Boycey
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01-14-2020, 06:14 PM -
(01-14-2020, 04:49 PM)Makween Wrote: There are decent reasons to have reservations about certain aspects of Starmer's history (as will be the case with anyone in politics of his age), but to suggest Labour need a dyed in the wool anti-imperialist socialist leader or the party is dead is just mental. Even if Starmer is further to the right on some issues than some of the membership would like, if the left of the party is strong he'll have to make concessions. Think people have to accept that in order to achieve things, you need to work with people you don't necessarily agree with.

Not sure how specific this is to Corbynistas, though - the way the left is now behaving isn't much different from how the 'never Corbyn' right of the party was behaving before. Think it's maybe more of an issue of very online people getting locked into their own echo chambers, and not being able to differentiate between the kind of small issues Twitter uncovers (e.g. Starmer having voted the wrong way, Corbyn standing beside the wrong people), which would've gone unnoticed 10-20 years ago, and genuinely big ideological differences (Jess Phillips). It's something the left (in the broadest possible terms) has always been bad at, and which social media has exacerbated.

I agree with pretty much all of that. It’s much less the not supporting Starmer bit that’s the problem; it’s the steadfast refusal to learn lessons from the last 40 years that is. Walt’s point re: RLB only goes to highlight that.

(01-14-2020, 05:00 PM)Grumblebum Wrote: It’s also people like us not being able to differentiate between how people behave on twitter and in real life.

Same way independence supporters get painted as “cybernats”.

Got to be careful of taking social media too seriously, for sure.

That said, I think it’s increasingly the case that for a lot of these people, there is no differentiation. They’re living their lives on there (TalkHearts.txt), getting caught up in echo chambers (TalkHearts.txt) and attempting to create narratives that are platformed way beyond their value (TalkHearts.txt)

(01-14-2020, 05:49 PM)Grumblebum Wrote: You are making her out to be some evil witch. She may not be the strongest candidate out of the five, but she is entitled to run.

I thought we were all agreed that Corbyn's message was decent, but it was the fact he was a trotskyist, terrorist-loving, anti-semetic, communist, power hungry, champagne socialist that was the problem?

I assume that the "notorious" Rebecca Long Bailey (read notorious as, hardly anyone in Britain kens her) is now the wicked witch of the west?


She’s a poor leadership candidate, but a principled person and a politician worth respect. It would be a huge mistake to elect her leader as the country won’t, but her wing of the party should be represented in the debate.

It should be a Starmer coronation as he is obviously the stand out in terms of that intangible “electability” and he is not tainted, but I have been relatively impressed with Lisa Nandy so far (/lawson). Bit of a shame Dawn Butler could only get herself on the Deputy leader ballot as she has a lot to offer imo. Don’t even get me started on Phillips Monty Ooh
Little Bit Of The Boycey
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01-14-2020, 06:16 PM -
(01-14-2020, 06:11 PM)Makween Wrote: Agree with this in the sense that any candidate willing to engage with such a stupid fucking question probably shouldn't be leader.

That was the clearest of all indications that Starmer is the best of them - the only one who batted it away with grace and dignity.
Adonis Aceyjaj
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01-14-2020, 06:44 PM -
I assume that, were RLB to become leader, the press/Tory line will be "just another Corbynite" in order to damn her by association.

Hopefully it's Starmer. Politics needs more trained lawyers in prominent positions (no smiley).
Papin
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01-14-2020, 06:51 PM -
(01-14-2020, 06:44 PM)Acey Wrote: I assume that, were RLB to become leader, the press/Tory line will be "just another Corbynite" in order to damn her by association.

Hopefully it's Starmer. Politics needs more trained lawyers in prominent positions (no smiley).

RLB was solicitor too Monty Oh Well



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