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'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread
Started by Sterling Archer




31387 posts in this topic
Shuto Makino
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04-04-2020, 12:46 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:40 PM)Morph Wrote: My eyes were first opened to it when Corbyn was smeared as a backwards women hater who was going  to segregate women into different carriages on the train.

On this subject: note how those who smeared Corbyn supporters as sexist because 'Labour should be led by a woman' ended up choosing Starmer over the two women he was running against.

That's not a problem in itself if they thought he was a better candidate - representation for its own sake isn't something anyone should be promoting - but does show the extent to which certain people weaponise identity politics purely to smear the left.

I'm actually not that disappointed over Starmer winning - he's probably a steady enough pair of hands. The real disappointment for me today is to see Dawn Butler performing so poorly, as imo she was the best of any of the candidates for either leader or deputy.
This post was last modified: 04-04-2020, 12:47 PM by Shuto Makino.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Morph
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04-04-2020, 12:49 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:46 PM)Makween Wrote: On this subject: note how those who smeared Corbyn supporters as sexist because 'Labour should be led by a woman' ended up choosing Starmer over the two women he was running against.

That's not a problem in itself if they thought he was a better candidate - representation for its own sake isn't something anyone should be promoting - but does show the extent to which certain people weaponise identity politics purely to smear the left.
I didn’t really know much about this angle so not being wide.

Why did they think labour should be led by a woman and not the best candidate? (That could’ve been a woman) I didn’t pay a lot of attention to the leadership race tbf but I did like RLB at the start. I don’t know how she done during the campaign but she was someone I felt I could relate to and trust so I was hoping she would get it. Thought she had a very good background and for me indyp and the NHS are my 2 priorities when voting and she had a good history with the NHS I’m sure.
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Shuto Makino
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04-04-2020, 12:54 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:49 PM)Morph Wrote: I didn’t really know much about this angle so not being wide.

Why did they think labour should be led by a woman and not the best candidate? (That could’ve been a woman)  I didn’t pay a lot of attention to the leadership race tbf but I did like RLB at the start.  I don’t know how she done during the campaign but she was someone I felt I could relate to and trust so I was hoping she would get it.  Thought she had a very good background and for me indyp and the NHS are my 2 priorities when voting and she had a good history with the NHS I’m sure.

The idea is that it's ridiculous that the party of the left hasn't been led by a woman in over a century of history, while the Tories have now had two women Prime Ministers, and that it says something about institutionalised sexism in our political system. I'd largely agree with that, but don't think the way to deal with it is just to get in any woman as leader to prove a point - the focus has to be who has the best policies and is most likely to win an election. That's true now, but was also true when Corbyn was leader (I suspect certain people were pushing the 'it needs to be a woman' line because they expected more from Jess Phillips).

I think Begbie is right that RLB would've been savaged by the media as the continuity Corbyn candidate. She got my first preference because, for me, the Green New Deal is the single most important issue by far, and she was best on that. I'm almost glad she didn't win, though, as we'd have just had another however many years like the last four.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Poor Playercey
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04-04-2020, 12:55 PM -
Mak voting for Rebecca Long-Bailey Heh Deary me.
(08-02-2018, 09:04 AM)Mags Wrote: A resposta é Sim.

Shuto Makino
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04-04-2020, 12:59 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:55 PM)Adonis Aceyjaj Wrote: Mak voting for Rebecca Long-Bailey Heh Deary me.

Not enough of a beast to get your support?
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Zizou
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04-04-2020, 01:00 PM -
Fist of Gorgie
Morph
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04-04-2020, 01:01 PM -
Titter Piggy
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Mikey
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04-04-2020, 01:01 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:59 PM)Makween Wrote: Not enough of a beast to get your support?

Jim Kens
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04-04-2020, 01:07 PM -
Not enough of a winner, actually. Greggy
(08-02-2018, 09:04 AM)Mags Wrote: A resposta é Sim.

Morph
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04-04-2020, 01:11 PM -
(04-04-2020, 01:07 PM)Adonis Aceyjaj Wrote: Not enough of a winner, actually. Greggy

https://youtu.be/tKdcjJoXeEY
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Shuto Makino
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04-04-2020, 01:31 PM -
(04-04-2020, 01:07 PM)Adonis Aceyjaj Wrote: Not enough of a winner, actually. Greggy

'She isn't electable, not like Keir Starmer, who is electable. I am very clever.'
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

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04-04-2020, 01:37 PM -
She certainly wasn't elected as Labour leader, that's true. Greggy

Disappointed to see you lashing out with insults. So much for the "tolerant left" amirite everyone? Dank
(08-02-2018, 09:04 AM)Mags Wrote: A resposta é Sim.

Cheeky Gnando’s
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04-04-2020, 01:37 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:32 PM)Makween Wrote: You're trying to manufacture a contradiction where there is no contradiction - I didn't say that 'politics has moved on from a charismatic man in a suit'. I said that it had moved on from articulate men in suits - I absolutely do think that politicians need to be charismatic in 2020, and that's a big part of why I feel that Starmer is less electable than people think. It's also why Johnson remains very popular with a certain kind of voter despite being demonstrably useless.

In the rest of your post, you've said a good bit about what electability isn't, and a good deal about who Starmer's supporters aren't, but not much about what actually makes him electable. What makes him electable?

Apologies if you feel like I was putting words in your mouth. You mentioned Cameron as your example of articulate white guy in suit, before immediately moving on to Starmer’s lack of charisma in your next sentence, and the two seem pretty interchangeable in this context - Cameron is a prick, but he undeniably did carry a level of charisma. I don’t think you do necessarily ‘need’ charisma to be a successful leader. You do need credibility, especially in the eyes of the electorate. It was lack of credibility and not lack of charisma that cost Corbyn the last election.

Starmer’s electability comes from the credibility I think he has. He isn’t a charismatic speaker, but he is a clear and authoritative one - he can communicate in a way that makes sense to people. He is politically competent and will be able to hold the incompetent Johnson to account in Parliament; his career as a lawyer has served him well in terms of the way he questions and scrutinises government. His election as leader has shown that he doesn’t have strong opposition across the party - Labour need a unity candidate and he gained majority support from all across the unions, membership, PLP and unlike Corbyn, has shown a capability to bring the different wings of the party together in his shadow Cabinet. He’s not tainted by close association to previous leaderships. The policies he has committed to are largely popular, but also Labour - nationalisation is the railways, universal free tuition fees, repealing the Tories’ trade union laws etc. He is also a serious politician, and with a PM who very much isn’t serious, he provides a credible challenge.

I’m not saying he will definitely win the next election. I am saying he is far better placed to do so than his rivals and predecessors.

(04-04-2020, 12:41 PM)Neaven Staismith Wrote: How did the press treat the leader of the opposition when Labour were in power btw? Was it the same relentless bullying and character assassination rather than holding the government to account? I'm too young to remember.

Doesn't really matter how easy or difficult they make it for themselves, they don't get fair exposure. Cameron, May and Johnson have done more damage to the country than Brown, Miliband or Corbyn ever could, but in terms of respective inches written about their personal evil, the Tories are miles behind.


Hague, Howard, and latterly Major got a very rough time off the press. The Hague baseball cap was the bacon roll of its day Laugh

You get a hard time off the media if you’re left wing. No arguments there. But as those three show, you get a harder time if you’re shit.
Shuto Makino
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04-04-2020, 02:09 PM -
(04-04-2020, 01:37 PM)Adonis Aceyjaj Wrote: She certainly wasn't elected as Labour leader, that's true. Greggy

Disappointed to see you lashing out with insults. So much for the "tolerant left" amirite everyone? Dank

Nice though it is to see THF 2015 patter making a comeback, it's strange that you'd take being called clever as an insult. Have more self-confidence mate. Fart Smelly

Afraid that greggying over her not being elected as Labour leader isn't going to get much of a rise - I basically agree that she wouldn't have been electable. As the Corbyn project demonstrated, 'she's unelectable' becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when a large enough cross section of the media repeat it often enough (which isn't to say that Corbyn's only problem was media bias).

(04-04-2020, 01:37 PM)Little Bit Of The Boycey Wrote: Apologies if you feel like I was putting words in your mouth. You mentioned Cameron as your example of articulate white guy in suit, before immediately moving on to Starmer’s lack of charisma in your next sentence, and the two seem pretty interchangeable in this context - Cameron is a prick, but he undeniably did carry a level of charisma. I don’t think you do necessarily ‘need’ charisma to be a successful leader. You do need credibility, especially in the eyes of the electorate. It was lack of credibility and not lack of charisma that cost Corbyn the last election.

Starmer’s electability comes from the credibility I think he has. He isn’t a charismatic speaker, but he is a clear and authoritative one - he can communicate in a way that makes sense to people. He is politically competent and will be able to hold the incompetent Johnson to account in Parliament; his career as a lawyer has served him well in terms of the way he questions and scrutinises government. His election as leader has shown that he doesn’t have strong opposition across the party - Labour need a unity candidate and he gained majority support from all across the unions, membership, PLP and unlike Corbyn, has shown a capability to bring the different wings of the party together in his shadow Cabinet. He’s not tainted by close association to previous leaderships. The policies he has committed to are largely popular, but also Labour - nationalisation is the railways, universal free tuition fees, repealing the Tories’ trade union laws etc. He is also a serious politician, and with a PM who very much isn’t serious, he provides a credible challenge.

I’m not saying he will definitely win the next election. I am saying he is far better placed to do so than his rivals and predecessors.

I guess we probably disagree over the importance of charisma. I'd agree that as recently as 10-15 years ago it wasn't enough to be a deciding factor (important though it always was), but in our current media environment I honestly think that it's liable to be the deciding factor. The most charismatic of the leadership candidates, for me, was probably actually Nandy; RLB was no better than Starmer in that department. I'm picking up on it in relation to Starmer because he's the one everyone's convinced is electable.

I hope you're right about him. The last couple of pages of this thread probably make me look like I'm strongly opposed to him, but I'm actually not: I think time will tell in terms of his policies, and that who he picks in his shadow cabinet will be the first major sign of which direction he plans on taking. It wasn't a particularly easy choice to vote for RLB ahead of him: I hesitated before doing so, and in the end it was only really the green new deal that swung it. I hope that, as I think you suggested would happen earlier in the thread, the left of the party is now strong enough for the Labour party to emerge from the past few years significantly to the left of where it was before Corbyn. There is enough evidence from his past to suggest that that may well be the case, but I do worry about what compromises he's made to get so much enthusiastic support from the right of the party (saw Jim Murphy tweeting triumphantly about his win earlier - Jim fucking Murphy ffs). Like I said, time will tell, but I'm getting a bit of Miliband energy from him in the sense that I think he'd probably like to keep the party to the left but will be able to be convinced that he needs to move towards the centre.

I think the point on credibility is interesting. I agree that he'll be able to tear Johnson to shreds in a way that Corbyn couldn't, but I'm not convinced that that'll impact on public perception in the way you think it will. I could easily foresee a situation in which Starmer routinely DESTROYS Johnson with facts and logic only for Kuenssberg and co. to carry on parroting Tory party press releases in such a way that it has zero impact on the electorate. If anything, I worry that what you see as his credibility could count against him: that he looks so polished, speaks so well, and is a sir while Johnson is obviously a shambling buffoon could make it quite easy for the Tories to portray him as representing a morally bankrupt system while Johnson is an anti-system insurgent. The opposite is true, of course: Johnson is an Eton-educated career politician, while Starmer actually had a career outside politics. But I think that perception matters more than facts, particularly at a time when the Tories can actually credibly respond to Labour arguments about public spending by saying that they're already pumping money into the economy (which is a nonsense argument, of course, but a fairly easy one to make).

Like I said, I hope you're right about him and do think he'll probably do a better job as opposition leader than RLB would've done, while Nandy might've been as/more electable but would've been much more of a step to the right than Starmer. I guess I just feel a bit deflated about politics in general at the moment: I've felt energised by two political movements in my lifetime, and those were the yes movement in 2014 and Corbynism over the past few years. Starmer might be alright, but it's hard to feel energised by him in the same way, while socially reactionary voices seem to be becoming increasingly prominent in the yes movement. Just think everything looks pretty bleak just now.
This post was last modified: 04-04-2020, 02:11 PM by Shuto Makino.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

Zizou
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04-04-2020, 02:50 PM -
(04-04-2020, 12:05 PM)Morph Wrote: Sun runs their story “millionaire Starmer appointed labour leader”

Monty Oh Well

He played an important role in the phone hacking investigation against the News of the World so these cunts will be baying for his blood.
Billy Butcher
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04-05-2020, 08:48 AM -
Daily Express today:

'How much is Keir Starmer worth?'

'Starmer win to see Lib Dem pro-remain MERGER in Left Wing blow'

Here we go.
Zizou
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04-05-2020, 09:08 AM -
Starmer is on Marr right now. Coming across well and being critical of the government.

Also this on his first day

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Billy Butcher
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04-05-2020, 09:12 AM -
Wondered why 'Saville' was trending on Twitter... another anti-Starmer story about him declining to prosecute Saville when he was head of the CPS.

This will be constant everyday for weeks IMO, I hope Starmer knows how to deal with it.
Morph
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04-05-2020, 10:47 AM -
(04-05-2020, 09:08 AM)Ross Kemp On Spice Wrote: Starmer is on Marr right now. Coming across well and being critical of the government.

Also this on his first day

[Image: EU0uDv5WoAAuCxX?format=jpg&name=large]

So is he going to just be one of these guys who tell people what they want to hear to gain their support?

That anti semitism thing was just a big smear for labour at the time, didn’t hear a word about it after the election until now which is quite something for an issue that was apparently so rife.
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Cheeky Gnando’s
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04-05-2020, 10:55 AM -
Starmer was excellent on Marr. So refreshing to watch the Labour leader speak without worrying he’s going to say something stupid.

Morph, that’s unfair. It was to a large extent a smear, but there were huge failings in the leadership’s dealing with it, and you have to draw a line under it and try to move on as a new leader - people left the party over it and you have to win their trust back. It’s again a signal that he is far better than his predecessors and far more capable of leading an Opposition.



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