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'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread
Started by Sterling Archer




27405 posts in this topic
Makween
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11-18-2020, 09:08 PM -
If he's still going to be unelectable anyway, what is there to support in dividing the Labour party and pandering to a vicious right-wing smear campaign?

If it's not about electability, all the other stuff you've said is of zero value and you should admit that this is ideological, as are the reasons why you support it.
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

S.J.
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11-19-2020, 11:49 AM -
(11-18-2020, 08:59 PM)Frank Uchewood Wrote: When Starmer loses the next election, it doesn’t mean Corbyn was electable. Corbyn losing the last one doesn’t make a Starmer electable.

It still doesn’t change the fact that Corbyn is relatively unpopular (YouGov has him as the 12th most  popular Labour politician with an approval rating of 18%, FWIW) and the trajectory of the Corbyn-led Labour Party wasn’t exactly suggesting they would become the dominant force in UK politics.

They can both be unelectable, especially in England. Jezza

You are continuing to stoke division so not really helping this idea of Labour coming together and forming a government.

Many peoples views (including my own) was that, while Corbyn wasn't the ideal candidate, the movement was very promising, very positive and was gaining traction. However the momentum (excuse the pun) was torpedoed through a long series of sabotage from many within the party and the broadcasters/print. People have only recently woken up to the fact that Kuennsberg and Peston were getting all their information from the Vote Leave faction of No.10 in the last few years. The most obvious example was the time when they told the nation that a Corbyn activist punched a Tory MP or whatever it was. Luckily there was a video to show it was a complete lie.

I was content to stay quiet and see what Starmer could do as a more centrist candidate. But instead of uniting the party he has tried to remove socialist voices from the party. Basically becoming The Independent Group for Change UK.

He should be harnessing the base that are passionate about Labour values and getting them out doorstopping everyday when Covid quietens down. Instead, the strategy seems to be to alienate grassroots activists and run the party from Labour HQ with a handful of Blairites and PR consultants. The plan seems to be to let the Tories sink the country in the hope that the electorate are so desperate that they'll vote anyone who will provide stability. My issue is - in the same way Blair stabilised Thatcherite policies, Labour will stabilise years of shocking destruction to the fabric of British society that was kickstarted with years of needless austerity. There is so much to transform, but Starmer's Labour seems more likely to consolidate these Tory gains imprinting them on the british psyche for good as it becomes normalised.

I mean, that's the best case scenario. No guarantees he will get elected. The difference between Starmer's "forensic" nature and a revitalised Ed Milliband was quite stark. He needs to show a bit more passion while the country is in flames, imo.
This post was last modified: 11-19-2020, 11:52 AM by S.J..
Andy Hallidacey
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11-19-2020, 12:14 PM -
The Independent Group for Change UK though Pinilla
Walter Boycechak
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11-19-2020, 12:34 PM -
(11-17-2020, 08:16 PM)S.J. Wrote: I'm going to try and bring up a topic of discussion - something which doesn't happen much on here anymore. I think we have all been Covid and brexit fatigued for so long to talk politics.  Warnock

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/202...sm-remarks

I noticed today that Corbyn was reinstated into the Labour party, a climbdown from the leadership after suspending him for a statement which I thought was very fair when I read it, but did not include any overt apology (I assume due to the fact the EHRC report was treated as some big victory in the media but the reports conclusions were pretty tame and prevelance was in line with other parties).

I remember before when Corbyn was coming out apologising over anti-semetism, that instead of quelling the issue it instead poured more fuel on the fire. Subsequent leaks from the labour report stated that people then purposely frustrated the internal disciplinary process of the party, so it was looking like Corbyn was not taking action even after his apology and attempts to address things internally. A similar thing also happened with Sanders when he eventually felt he had to come out to apologise for instances of online misogyny from the "bernie bros" to quell the narrative - again it made it worse.. Interestingly, I would say the anti-semetism narrative and the "bernie bros" narrative were both stoked most by the enemies of these people rather than concerned jewish people or concerned women. On social media it seems the moment you admit fault, it kicks open the door for your "haters" and the "mainstream media" to have a free for all over your character and your life.  It made me think of the Griffiths stuff the other day (although it turns out he did apologise, his statement was just malicously edited). Limmy also has been burned on this and suggests the block and move on strategy - i.e. the key is to not engage.

Bringing it back to politics, it makes me think that those, especially the left of centre do-gooders, spend so much time apologising for transgressions that they are virtually always on the back foot. I am all for apologies with the people in question (in person preferably), but I think a strategy for people on the left is to refuse to play the game of others where they get to set the rules. If you feel you want to apologise then do it, but do not give in to the demand otherwise it will open the floodgates. Stick to your game and your strategy, don't engage with their strategy.  I think the independence movement is decent at this. When we are called nationalists and seperatists, we take it as a compliment, we don't try and defend ourselves and explain in a politically correct way why we are not nationalists etc... I think on social media at least, if another Corbyn or Bernie type figure comes along, then inevitably unsavoury things will come out - they may have shared a platform with a dodgy political group 25 year ago, or their supporters may have called someone a 'bitch' on twitter for disagreeing with them (twitter is a toxic communicative tool). You have to stand firm and not give in to their demand that you sacrifice yourself at the altar thinking it will do you good or quieten a controversy. It's exactly what they are after. The left need to be more robust in this sense.

Views?

While it is hugely tempting to leave this epic post just hanging in the wind for a laugh, i agree this is a good point. FWIW my view is that the issue here is mainly one of media. As simplistic as that sounds. Example that struck me the other day was johnson announcing his green deal which included plan to prevent petrol/diesel car sales from 2030. There is another debate to be had about his pitiful the £4bn put up is, especially when he's just made a £16bn defence announcement, but put that aside. Imagine a labour gov (especially a left wing one) announced "no more petrol cars from 2030" and think about the media narrative and framing of that, and compare that with the cuddly 'isnt this a great step' way that johnson's announcement was reported.

So I feel the left are constantly trying to run policy through the gauntlet of this hostile media environment. The tories don't really have to deal with that at all. Where is the BBC expose on islamophobia? It is also probably helpful for them as the golf club bore element of their core vote might have some anti Islamic tendencies anyway. So i agree that by engaging on their terms, labour is always going to fall into the same trap. The likes of Rachel Riley, FFS, a clear bad faith actor, who admitted she votes tory, constantly given oxygen by all of this, so she can run a campaign against the labour left; with starmer now looking at the likes of her as a bellweather for electability.

As another aside, starmer is another bad faith actor who really misled a lot with his attempts to secure backing from the left who he has now abandoned completely.
Mikey
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11-19-2020, 12:55 PM -
I'd have chucked it and spent my days on the allotment if I was him Hung
Charlie Kelly
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11-19-2020, 06:50 PM -


“International Men’s Day Debate” :Monty Ha 

Glad the government is doing this sort of important work at times like this.
Morph
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11-19-2020, 07:00 PM -
See they’ve increased defence spending by 10%, something about we retreat too much and we need to defend the realm.

Just usual Tory shit, no shock Starmer is lapping it up and applauding it Monty Oh Well
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Jeff Resnick
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11-19-2020, 07:27 PM -
(11-19-2020, 06:50 PM)Charlie Kelly Wrote:


“International Men’s Day Debate” :Monty Ha 

Glad the government is doing this sort of important work at times like this.

There's been such a debate for a few years now. The purpose is meant to be to highlight issues like mental health, high rates of male suicide and stigma around male abuse victims but certain Tory types latch onto it for other reasons.
Makween
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11-19-2020, 09:18 PM -
While Labour are busy attacking an old codger who just wanted to nationalise the railways, the Tories are outflanking them on the green industrial revolution Heh Or more accurately not even outflanking them, given that they've pledged to spend less than half of what Labour have (which still isn't enough), but it sure does look that way given that Labour are spending no energy at all on discussing it Heh
(08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)i8hibsh Wrote: I AM A LONER BY CHOICE
I AM SINGLE BY CHOICE
I HAVE NO KIDS BY CHOICE

theMAGANATOR
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11-20-2020, 04:10 PM -
The SNP putting more obstacles up in front of the Salmon inquiry Monty Oh You

This is such a rotten episode in Scottish politics Warnock

Morph
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11-20-2020, 04:21 PM -
I was reading about this. Something about there being 2 separate hearings and the timing of when evidence can be disclosed.

As I understood it but could be well wrong - one of them was criminal and the other wasn’t. Evidence can’t be shared before the criminal one and that’s why they are saying the 2 people can’t attend the first one as it would be illegal(?) to talk about it before the criminal hearing.

Surely it would be flat out illegal to make a decision on behalf of the 2 folk that they have to withhold evidence completely. I haven’t really been following any of the salmond stuff tbh but I had read a bit of the response to this.
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S.J.
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11-20-2020, 06:51 PM -
The SNP is on borrowed time with the Yes movement.
Zizou
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11-20-2020, 07:17 PM -


Mind the days where if you didn't get the sack you at least had to pretend you were genuinely sorry Warnock
Little Bit Of The Boycey
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11-20-2020, 07:23 PM -
A literal “I’m sorry you feel that way” from her Warnock
Steven Toast
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11-20-2020, 07:24 PM -
Clearly been told to fire out a half-arsed apology and that will be the end of the matter. She so doesn't give a flying fuck.

Monty Chuckle
Sterling Archer
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11-25-2020, 12:07 PM -
You’re being called out Begbie

theMAGANATOR
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11-25-2020, 12:10 PM -
To say that there is a gender pay gap implies that there are only two genders which is highly offensive and therefore there is no such thing as the 'gender pay gap' Smug
Andy Hallidacey
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11-25-2020, 12:21 PM -
I'd be willing to guess that men are paid a lot more than maveriques tbf.

Spoiler :
http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html -  "maverique" is my gender from now on so please respect it Cool
This post was last modified: 11-25-2020, 12:21 PM by Andy Hallidacey.
Zizou
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11-25-2020, 01:59 PM -


Mccringe
S.J.
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11-25-2020, 02:01 PM -
Dishy Rishi tho



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